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:: Transcripts - National
Radio, Checkpoint, Wednesday, 24 August 2005 |
Transcript - National Radio,
Checkpoint,
Wednesday, 24 August 2005
Professional
firefighters have won an employment court test case that the Fire
Service says could mean up to $5m a year in ongoing costs and up
to another $5m in backpay. The case has implications for airline
pilots and could also affect other emergency services. The dispute
was whether the firefighters' contract provides days off in lieu
for working public holidays as required under the Holidays Act.
Compere talks to Mike Hall about the implications of the
judgement, and he assures that it will not affect services to the
public.
Interviewees: Mike Hall, Chief Executive,
Fire Service
MARY WILSON:
Professional fire-fighters have won a significant Employment Court
test case that the Fire Service says could mean up to $5 million a
year in ongoing costs, and up to another 5 million in back-pay.
The case has implications for airline pilots, and could also
affect other 24-hour emergency services.
The dispute was whether over the contract covering the 1800
fire-fighters provides days off in lieu for working public
holidays, as required under the 2003 Holidays Act.
The Fire Service said the fire-fighters down time already included
any days off in lieu, but the union successfully argued that it
didn’t, and that extra time had to be provided.
The Fire Service’s chief Mike Hall – Chief Executive Mike Hall –
says that’ll come at a price.
MIKE HALL:
We think between 3.5 and 5.5 million per year, depending on how
the decision is interpreted and applied.
WILSON:
But that means sitting down and talking with your staff, doesn’t
it, with the workers?
HALL:
With the unions yeah, of course it does, yeah.
WILSON:
And working out how this is going to apply; and for instance, how
people will choose their days off in lieu.
HALL:
Yeah, well that’s right. That’s normally the way we do business.
We’ve never considered this to be a confrontationalist area. It’s
new legislation. You’ve stated the financial impact on the
organisation, and…
WILSON:
Well can you afford that financial impact?
HALL:
Yeah, well clearly we’ll sit down with our unions and determine
what the absolute figure is. But we’ve been aware for quite a
long time of the potential impact of this legislation, and quite
prudently we’ve built in that impact, potential impact into our
business model.
WILSON:
Right, so you’ve got the money saved have you?
HALL:
Yes, yes, we can afford it, and no, there will be no impact on
services to the public.
WILSON:
Do you now owe the workers any money? Is there a retrospective
nature to this?
HALL:
Well, there is, back to April in 2004, and we have the, the
liability, if we accept the court’s decision without appeal, to
back-pay to that date.
WILSON:
So, how much are we talking about there?
HALL:
Well again, it’s between 3.5 and 5.5 million per year, so you can
extrapolate that back to the 1st of April 2004.
WILSON:
Alright, so just to get this clear, you have up to $5 million a
year in ongoing costs…
HALL:
Yes.
WILSON:
…plus up to $5 million possibly in back-pay.
HALL:
That’s correct.
WILSON:
That’s quite a lot of money isn’t it?
HALL:
Yeah, well it is. it amounts to about 2% of salary budget per
year for an organisation the size of the Fire Service, and as I
say, we were not unaware of the potential, and it’s built into our
financial modelling.
WILSON:
One might ask why you didn’t get this sorted out a lot earlier.
The judgement says, the contract simply does not comply with the
Holidays Act.
HALL:
Well, as I said to you, we have a very complicated contract, and
the union have one view and we have another one, and we determined
without rank, to submit to the Employment Relations Court for an
umpire’s decision, and that’s what we’ve got.
WILSON:
And you think it was worth the price of that?
HALL:
Well it always is, because any organisation with the best will in
the world, will simply not take the unions view of a new piece of
legislation that’s gonna cost an additional $5 million a year,
without getting some expert opinion from the courts.
WILSON:
And this is Mike Hall from the Fire Service.
* * End * *
Compere talks to DerEK Best about the union's victory in the
employment court over days in lieu. He says the union will be
holding discussions with the Fire Service regarding the
implementation of the decision.
Interviewees:
DerEK Best, National Secretary,
Firefighters Union
MARY WILSON:
Joining us now is the National Secretary of the Fire-Fighters
Union, Derek Best. Good evening.
DEREK BEST:
Good evening Mary.
WILSON:
The Fire Service says it’s still considering whether to appeal
or not.
BEST:
Well yes, they’ve got a timeframe of 28 days within which to
make that decision, and as Michael noted, I’m pretty certain
between now and then we’ll be having some discussions with the
Fire Service regarding the implementation of the decision as it
presently stands, and maybe that might help them with making their
mind up regarding an appeal as well.
WILSON:
Do you regard this then as a reasonably significant victory?
BEST:
Yes, very much so. It’s, has been previously, and even with
the new legislation, very difficult to quite understand some of
its principles, as applied to shift workers, particularly groups
like fire-fighters that work 24 hours a day, seven days a week.
We’ve still got another three or four issues that we don’t think
have been properly clarified at this stage, but the, the one we
decided to proceed with first was the, was the days in lieu.
And obviously, given that the outcome means another eight, you
know, on the average an eight to 10 days leave a year for
fire-fighters, that is a very significant improvement in
fire-fighters conditions of employment, because…
WILSON:
Yeah, and $5 million in back-pay; sounds like something you’d,
what, be getting onto pretty much straight away.
BEST:
Well we’d certainly like it to be paid as well, you know, as
early as possible. And I guess that, as far as fire-fighters are
concerned, is a pretty good return on, on their union membership
fees – just that one issue alone.
WILSON:
There’s been a lot of discussion in the past – and you’re very
much aware of this – of actually how much work fire-fighters do,
and there is a lot of down time anyway. Why do you need more?
BEST:
Well, the principle in this country is that if you work a
public holiday you’re entitled to, and obviously there are
downsides with that – fire-fighters regularly aren’t at home at
Christmas time and other significant celebratory days – if you
work on one of those providing an essential public service, then
you’re entitled to another day off in compensation. It’s really
just as simple as that.
WILSON:
The question seems to be though, what day the staff will
choose, and if they’ve worked a previous public holiday they may
well in fact choose to have their day off in lieu on Christmas
Day.
BEST:
Yeah, well absolutely, and you know we acknowledge that as a
problem. We have an absolute vital interest in ensuring that fire
trucks have, have staff on them 24 hours a day, seven days a week.
In fact, at various time, we have, we believe we’re the only ones
that actually have that as an objective.
So, they are some of the issues that we need to talk with the
employer. We’ve acknowledged that as a problem.
WILSON:
The service will keep going regardless, on public holidays?
BEST:
Well we’ll certainly make absolutely every effort to ensure
that it does. I mean even now…
WILSON:
That doesn’t sound like a guarantee though.
BEST:
Well no, nothing can be guaranteed as far as that’s concerned,
but, but I think it’s pretty well accepted that in the past when
there have been problems on particular days with staffing, we have
spent as much as time as the employer have in contacting members
and, and making sure that we have minimum staffing arrangements
available.
I think the other aspect too, to talk with the Fire Service is, is
whether there is a need to actually increase the overall
establishment of fire-fighters to accommodate this amount of time
off.
WILSON:
That’s something that you will be taking up with them in the
negotiations, which Mike Hall seems pretty clear he wants to have,
and in a pretty friendly atmosphere as well.
BEST:
Well absolutely. Well when you’ve got a 24 hour a day service
obviously not every fire-fighter that’s employed – you’re talking
about 1800 fire-fighters employed – there’s only about 400 or so
of those on duty at any one point in time, and the surplus are
there to work on the next lot of shifts, and to be available to
work on overtime.
So, there are a number of issues like that that have to be looked
at as well.
WILSON:
Thanks very much for that. That’s Derek Best, he is the National
Secretary of the Fire-Fighters Union.
* * End * *
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